Attraction is NOT Divine Intervention (Part 2)

Yesterday I shared several real life examples of “magical thinking” in the New Age community. People searching for deeper answers to why things happen are very quick to say “Upstairs” showed me a sign, and very reluctant to own and take responsibility for their creation.

I’d like to share now another true story that happened to a friend who doesn’t believe in divine intervention:

  • Anne was early for work and was thinking “Damn, I hate getting there early.”  10 seconds later she had a minor car accident which wasted 25 minutes in exchanging details and she ended up late to work.
  • The next day Anne’s housemate said “don’t have an accident” and Anne said “don’t worry, I’m not running early today.”

What makes Anne different to the New Agers that I meet every day who confuse their fear of success with their angels giving them a pain in the gut, is that Anne truly OWNS her experience.  She took total responsibility for why she attracted the accident. This is a sign of a really conscious individual.

So how can you tell when there really is a Divine Intervention?

I’m keeping an open mind here. Somewhere, in the thousands of readers that visit this blog, might be a true miracle of Divine Intervention.  The thing is, it can be hard to tell the real miracles apart from the magical thinking I discussed yesterday.

The problem is that we all WANT to believe in magic, at least on some level.  (And who didn’t watch Harry Potter and think it would be cool to do that?)  Psychologists show that that magical thinking is natural in children, which I think means it’s innate in us all.

But how can you know whether something really is Divine Intervention or just the natural flow of life, as governed by universal laws like gravity, cause and effect and the Law of Attraction (LOA)?

To help you answer this question I want to propose a philosophical test.  I start by assuming that you believe in something like the LOA, as I described it in my recent article.  To me, LOA is just a principle of attraction and vibration, like gravity.  Gravity works whether you believe in it or not, the same with LOA.

So here’s the test: Something can only be Divine Intervention if can’t be explained by LOA.  If LOA explains it, it’s not Divine Intervention.

Got it?  I mean if I throw a tennis ball up and it comes down, I don’t scream “it’s a miracle!”   Similarly if I manifest to meet my soul mate using LOA and it works the way my Law of Attraction text book says it should, well that’s not Divine Intervention.  It’s just LOA.

If you can show me an example of something that can’t be explained by natural laws that an atheist would recognize, THEN and only then I’ll grant your “Divine Intervention.”

Let’s go back to Kim’s example in yesterday’s post about how she manifested her husband.

My husband also has beliefs very close to mine–I’m not sure I could have found him on my own, and I’m not sure I did.  …

Can YOU explain Kim finding her husband or making the right decisions without believing in the intervention of Gods and guides? Of course you can.

Throughout history people used the word God or Divine Intervention to explain things they couldn’t understand like the change of the seasons, why the sun comes up each morning, solar eclipses, earthquakes, etc.  As science has progressed we have simple, rational explanations for these things.  The same thing has happened to manifesting.

Belief in God versus disbelief in an Interventionist God

Just to be clear – science isn’t disproving God, but science has disproved the Interventionist God, the one that creates earthquakes and might not change the seasons on time if you fail to sacrifice enough virgins.  This blog is not about whether God exists, but I am willing to debate whether an interventionist God exists.  The first is a question of personal belief; the second is a question of science.

I’m going to repeat that last sentence, it’s so important that it was life-changing for me, and could be for you.

Whether or not there’s a higher consciousness is a question of belief because it can never be disproved.  No atheist can disprove my belief in my higher Beingness, no matter how much they try.

But whether there is an interventionist God, one who answers prayers, smites the unholy, nudges people in the right direction, heals the sick, or even makes people sick – this is a question of science.  It is testable.

There’s a big distinction there, and this article is about the interventionist god fallacy, not God itself.  I’m very spiritual and chances are you are too, but that doesn’t mean that you have to believe in New Age mythology, or anything else that doesn’t stack up logically.

We will return to this theme regularly as I am planning several articles about prayer healing.

Back to testing Divine Intervention

My point is a fairly simple one.  Plenty of people disagreed with what I wrote last time about Divine Intervention, some people shared their own stories, but NOBODY gave me an example of a supposed “Divine Intervention” that wasn’t explainable by the laws of science and probability.

One reader argued that Law of Attraction doesn’t exist because he should be dead.  So apparently Divine Intervention saved him.  I’ve previously said that I find this logic morally offensive – that Divinity chose to save him whilst millions around the world suffered and perished. It’s ego and it’s outrageously slopping thinking.  A MUCH more likely scenario is that he (the reader) didn’t really want to die, even though the thought occurred to him.

If, like me, you believe in a personal higher consciousness (Beingness as I call it, or perhaps a higher self) then his Beingmess didn’t want him to die.  This is a personal choice, not divine intervention (well it’s not any sort of intervention, you cannot intervene with yourself BY DEFINITION!).

It’s amazing how quick people are to thank divinity and how slow to really take the credit for their own creation (both positive and harmful).

Put simply – instead of thanking God for the good and bad that comes our way; we can take responsibility that WE CREATED these opportunities, unconsciously using the LOA to attract experiences into our lives.

I don’t want to be the one to tell you “Sorry, your Friend Upstairs doesn’t exist.” Rather, I’d like to be the one who empowers you to find a more meaningful relationship with your own spirituality.

Apply these ideas, test them.  Next time you want to claim Divine Intervention, simply ask “could this be explained by the Law of Attraction?” “Is it possible that my gut manifested this even if my head wasn’t thinking about it?”   I can pretty much guarantee the answer will be “yes,” but if it’s ever “no” please call me ASAP!  You have a miracle!

Thankyou for joining me in this exploration of spirituality and New Age mythology.  I’d love to hear from you, do you agree that the Law of Attraction can explain away Divine Intervention?  Do you agree that “New Age thinking” (God saved me when I wanted to kill myself) is a lack of personal responsibility?   Hopefully some of you disagree with me – that’s where the best comments and discussions come from!?  I look forward to hearing from you.

Blessings

Simon

34 Comments
April 8, 2011 in Law of Attraction
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34 Responses

  1. Sorry to disappoint you but I have to agree with everything you said (boring, I know) :) I’ve never seen a supposed example of divine intervention that can’t be explained by LOA. In fact, the irony is that a strong belief in divine intervention and strong faith that a prayer will be answered can create vibrational alignment with whatever it is the person’s praying for and bring it into their experience. The person then says “look – it’s a miracle! God answered my prayer!” when all that happened is that they were able to achieve vibrational alignment by the strength of their faith. Vibration is vibration and works the same no matter how you get there.

    In that sense, their faith is a good thing. Even though they’re denying their own power, if it’s working positively for them and they’re not using it to control others then good luck to them. There are some people who believe in divine intervention but they’re happy and their lives are working really well. They may not be expanding to the level they’re capable of but they’re happy with their situation so it would probably be counter-productive to talk to them about LOA unless they specifically asked. On the other hand, there are people who believe in divine intervention but are wishy washy in their faith and so they have the worst of both ends of the stick. They’re not happy, they have no understanding of their own power and they feel like victims being buffeted by a cruel world (which then just perpetuates a victim vibration). They’re the ones I feel sorry for.

    [Reply]

  2. I also agree with everything you’ve said.
    Silliness of divine intervention could be easily prooven by simple logic. If the God is everithing and everywhere, than any intervention would be something like “He helps his left hand to fight against right one”. It’s really silly.
    God couldn’t take dualistic position to intervent, for otherwise there should be something outside him, something that isn’t He.
    We could help ourself in anything, by taking responsibility for our actions and using our own divine abilities. And there’s no other God than one that always inside us. The only way to loose this divine power that anyone have – is to reject it by taking off our responsibility for our actions and results.

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  3. My sufi thoughts and “experiences”: ;) There is no seperated God at outside. And also we are not God.. the universe is multidimensional.. And the Consciousness is effected every dimension simultaneously. These dimensions (universes) are “The Knowledge of This Consciousness” and The Conciousness observe “its knowledge”, experience “its knowledge” and also experience “itself”

    The Consiousness is One and reflect every matter and non-matter (all of these are its knowledge) in their form. Like a water. The water takes the color of its pot. The consciousness takes the color of Mind (in Humanity)

    In humanity.. we have mind (emotions, thoughts etc.) and the mind position (dimension) has “The Higher Consciousness” idea. but The Higher Consiousness means “The No-Mind” position (dimension) if we experience that all our thoughts, emotions and even the “I am” sense dissappeared.. in that dimension there is no higher consiousness :) We have all the dimensions. So LOA, DI and other conceptions are the same for me. And it is from “Me”. Not The seperated outer god. There is no such god…

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    thanks Bulent, great to have you back. I have missed your Sufi wisdom over the last year. I love it. I must have been Sufi in my past life. Ooops, I forget, I don’t believe in that! :-)

    I have been searching for that reference you told me about the Sufi belief that the soul emerges from DNA (is the same as my belief that biology comes before spirit). Can you forward any more info on this?

    thanks
    Simon

    [Reply]

    Bulent Reply:

    :) Thanks Simon..

    That Sufi knowledge about soul is like an inner discovery. So the science is not proved it yet.

    This intutitive knowledge (actually it is not intuitive, it is far above the intution but I don’t know a word that explains the Sufi word of inner discovery) says that the DNA emerge the soul in 120 th day in the womb. 3×40 =120.. Because number 3 (30, 300, 3000 etc.) is related to creation and 40 (4, 400, 4000 etc) is the cycle of every dimension. ( it changes to 30.. 400 etc.. but the principle is “generally” the same.)

    For example about 3: We need 3 things to See.. 1) Observer 2) Observed 3) Observing

    We always need 3 dimension to experience something. So this is the rule of creation.. in this example the 4 is.. time&space…

    3×4= 12 months.. 12 astrologycal signs.. we have 12 holes in our body etc.. you can multiple the same principle.. And your Level 3 is 12 days :) ))

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    Bulent Reply:

    I can’t write all the informations about this knowledge, it is huge :) so many things need to explain and bound together. So.. this little piece may seem vague and nonsense.. :)

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Hi
    > So the science is not proved it yet.

    I appreciate that we are often ahead of what science can be proved. After all things need to be experienced before someone designs the experiments to test them.

    I was only asking about references to Sufi literature in English on the subject of soul and DNA. I could not find anything.

    I love this Sufi wisdom!

    By the way I can’t count to 12 orifices. I got to 11 (for a man anyway, might be 12 for a woman?).

    Simon

  4. You can find that DNA and soul emerge in english: http://www.ahmedhulusi.org/en/ His Sufi knowledge is extremely high. But I can’t remember which article or book in the site have this. You need to search.

    12 orifices: 2 eyes + 2 nostrils + 2 ear holes + 1 mouth + 2 nipples (both gender :) ) + 1 belly button + 1 sexual (penis or vajina) + 1 anus

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Typical man, I didn’t think of nipples as an opening. Silly me..

    I counted mouth as 2 separate openings (esophagus and windpipe) but I can accept the Sufi view. Strictly the female urethra is separate to the vagina, unlike the male equivalent. Perhaps the Sufi masters were too busy to study gynaecology? Just kidding. [Most religion and indeed medical anatomy is based on the male perspective.]

    Thanks for the info. I will check that link you shared. If you find any other good sources for Sufi perspectives on the soul please email me.

    SR

    [Reply]

    Bulent Reply:

    I guess the women have bonuses :)

    sure I will share with you if I find the english sufi resources.

    [Reply]

    Bulent Reply:

    The spirit molecule:

    http://okyanusum.com/belgesel/spirit_molecule.html

    This site is also a Sufi site and they follow all the latest researches in Science. The scientists are so close to find the DNA and the soul connection.

  5. Anne was early for work and was thinking “Damn, I hate getting there early.” 10 seconds later she had a minor car accident which wasted 25 minutes in exchanging details and she ended up late to work.
    The next day Anne’s housemate said “don’t have an accident” and Anne said “don’t worry, I’m not running early today.”
    What makes Anne different to the New Agers that I meet every day who confuse their fear of success with their angels giving them a pain in the gut, is that Anne truly OWNS her experience. She took total responsibility for why she attracted the accident. This is a sign of a really conscious individual.

    The problem I have with this particular example is that there is still a belief that changing your daily movements have even the slightest affect on how the rest of the world operates. It is arrogant at best and ridiculous at worst. The car accident is an event. We have power to deal with events in their current and aftermath but we cannot foresee random events and therefore cannot adjust for them. Anne changing her timing on any given day will statistically (science proving shit once again) provide no difference to her likelihood of having a car accident or any other such random event.

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Chris

    Statistics be dammed (and I would know).

    I am not sure you understood the point I was making. Probably because that part was “preaching to the choir.”

    The point was about unconscious self-sabotage. If someone is thinking “I don’t want to be early” then it’s a very small leap to say that they are distracted or looking for distraction, and it’s a very small leap from there to say they aren’t paying 100% attention to driving.

    Sure the accident is not a given – lots of us have run early without having an accident. But I disagree with you fluffing it off as a “random event.”

    An event that has a logical causation is not random, no matter how unlikely.

    Scientists criticize New Age thinking for confusing correlation (I prayed to God and he got better) with causation (I prayed to God THEREFORE he got better). I believe that this accident example is a very rare example where there is actually logical causation and not merely correlation.

    But at the end of the day, just my 2c.

    Simon

    [Reply]

  6. Simon. I understand your point about logical causation and in this instance being distracted, however….distraction itself is the likely cause of the accident. When we are distracted we do all sorts of stupid things including driving our car into someone else or whatever.

    The conscious individual merely acknowledges that he/she is distracted. Your example led me to believe that Anne believed that she would not have an accident because she was no longer running early. This is very different to believing the likelihood of an accident was less due to her not being distracted.

    The event that one needs to deal with is being distracted. I would argue that the likelihood of having certain things happen to you increase or decrease dependent on your frame of mind as your frame of mind provides the ability to take actions which logically affects ones outcomes.

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  7. …the drama enfolds.
    first it is all unconcious and then the life shows you inside and outside what patterns you attract (at least if there is a little openness towards life beyond ego),
    life patterns shows you whats in you more and more.
    sometimes you might believe in higher powers (divine intervention) and even you believe in ways to deal with them (e.g. thetahealing), to drive yourself to the lighter and better side, but then again you damn yourself for beliefing in higher (divine) powers.
    its all part of the story to come in peace with your own limited view of yourself and the limites view to the world.
    sometimes supported, sometimes “forced” you can stand the strong energy of yourself more and more. thats healing, thats releasing the energy hidden in a trauma for instance. you can welcome more and more of what is and of what you really are.
    “acknoldgement or saying welcome” were at least for my life a big support brought in by RPT – and so surely i tended to believe it all (very natural way: we want to see the a “gestalt”, a thing which makes sense for our limited view, although its not yet ready, not yet the whole thing).
    but generalisation of tools – thats problematic for the seeking soul:
    I believe that really many people had instant healings with RPT. But it was difficult to acknowledge that I had not. I guess in RPT-language “I was not able to let go of the ego-story” so fast “as if i could have done, if i would have sticked to the rules, did my homework, would have taken self responsibility” –
    for some reason, which are not possible to generalise (just my story), I was not at peace, I thought THEY must know ! THEM i paid, THEY wrote it on their homepage that it would work faster and so on…

    I did not get the generalised healing results, but now i am at peace with RPT.
    It was another great story of “enfolding my unconcious drama, my limited view -projecting it into the world”
    thank you all, who travelled with me !

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    hello old friend. I suppose lots of people tell you “you need to get out of your head?”

    Did you ever watch the 2010 student updates on the triune brain work? I ask because you did the original 2009 work with the ancestral method which did have a real drawback of not getting some people out of their heads and into their survival insticts. Those who did the course in 2010-11 learned a very different method for not thinking about the problem and accessing how the body’s survival instincts hold the problem in place. It would be great for you to not think so much about your “stuff.”

    Just my thoughts.

    wishing you the best on your healing journey till we meet again.

    Simon

    [Reply]

    Sascha Tscherni Reply:

    thank you simon,

    …yes I worked with the new technique of 2010…

    in my experience being in the head is mostly based on existential fear of not beeing heard/feeded/nourished/kept warm…

    it helped and helps to work on that.

    maybe some other readers can read something more valuable in my comment than a “heady comment about his stuff”, maybe not, who knows ?

    greetings, sascha

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Maybe someone can provide more valuable comments.

    To be honest, I had a lot of trouble finding what you were actually asking. It made my head hurt which is my intuitive sign that someone is stuck in the head.

    I am sure that if you spoken in your native tongue your question would be clearer. I know it can be hard to express ones own confusion in a foreign language.

    We do have a new German language translator becoming an RPT teacher in Germany and Turkey. Maybe you should connect with Oya for an exchange in your language.

    blessings
    Simon

    Sascha Tscherni Reply:

    thank you simon,
    I know oya,

    …it was not a question, it was just a sharing of my perspective. nothing which needed to be answered.

    we have a wonderful spring in austria,
    greetings,
    sascha

  8. I fully accept that we manifest from day to day according to the vibrations we give out. However, I do have a few weird experiences that I find very diificult to explain and perhaps someone will be able to see the logic and reason that escapes me.

    Many years ago when I had just taken Reiki level 2, I was feeling quite pleased with my new found powers. I went on a crystal and pyramid healing workshop, which bored me to tears as the guy taking it was going on about Atlantis and what I then considered weird stuff instead of getting on with what I wanted to learn. My friend and I picked up that there was some entity there that we thought should be got rid of and I went off to do my symbols and do the job. As I walked to the other side of the room, I hit an invisible brick wall and bounced off it at each attempt. This shook me so much that my humility soon returned and I was happy to participate fully in the workshop.
    Another time, I was ill and lay on the couch in my treatment room, meditating and giving myself Reiki. The window was on my left hand side but as I closed my eyes a light so bright that it hurt my eyes came down from the right hand side.
    In the 90′s I was hesitating whether to give up a secure job I hated or to risk self employment doing what I loved. I dreamed that I was climbing a loft ladder ever so slowly- suddenly hands came behind me and sent me flying into the loft. I knew then what I had to do.
    I was in a difficult relationship, wrong for me- twice the telephone by the side of the bed rang so loud in the night that it woke me up. However, I haven’t got a phone by the bed!
    Explanations welcome.
    Love and Light
    Wendy

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Wendy,

    There are lots of possible interpretations for what you experienced. Divine Intervention may be one explanation. But it’s not the most likely.

    kind regards
    Simon

    [Reply]

    Chris Reply:

    Wendy

    With all due respect I read your post above and I think that the examples you’ve provided do not provide examples of divine intervention.

    In fact no such examples actually exist to my knowledge. This is because God doesn’t exist except in the mind of man…right along with how Santa Claus and the Easter bunny exist in the mind of children.

    I think that there are two possibilities here. One is delusions and the other is hallucinations.

    The first is a belief often conjured up due to unproven “stories”, a belief in the supernatural, and is often taken on board by anyone that has the inability to take responsibility for their own life and purpose. What is the purpose of life? Only a religious person would attempt to be so arrogant as to state what the purpose of another mans life should be, while the fact is that they have failed to examine and identify their own purpose in life and instead seek a “higher power” who will provide a simple easy answer to a complex question. Sloppy lazy thinking at best. Are you seeking answers to some complex questions? It sounds like you are and are falling into the trap of failing to take responsibility for your life and decisions. If you take responsibility for your life and decisions (such as quiting a crappy job) and instead are laying that responsibility for the decision made on another entity then this is delusional.

    The second option is that you are hallucinating. You may well be sincere in your hallucinations but they are non the less hallucinations. Seeing lights or dreaming of someone lifting you up are not actually rare. I’ve dreamt of flying before. It was awesome and I could fly really fast and do flips and all sorts of crazy shit. It was my mind wandering but it was not a sign that I would soon be travelling on an airplane. I could have taken that as a sign if I wanted to of course. After all I had been mulling over whether or not to take a trip abroad or not. Its complete nonsense to take any of these “signs”, which are merely your mind wandering and piecing together your problems and thoughts in your subconscious (where they are disorganized) as anything provided to you from some divine being. Your own divine being is inside you and is your own minds ability to solve problems. Where this happens on the subconscious level people confuse it with all sorts of nonsense. When it happens on the conscious level it called decision making.

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  9. el Abogado del Diablo

    Hola Wendy

    What you describe are symptoms of psychosis, just as many so-called spiritual experiences turn out to be symptoms of schizophrenia. Mental institutions are full of people who hear God’s voice, or feel invisible barriers, just like you did.

    It is a fact that most people who describe these symptoms are people with a chemical imbalance in their brain, for which there may be psychiatric treatment. I do know that the institute of peak states have been experimenting with healing schizophrenia by clearing the trauma that makes people thing they hear God or see bright lights or feel invisible walls, etc. I don’t know if they have actually healed anyone, but their research does, for the first time, connect all the dots between psychosis, trauma and paranormal experiences.

    So that raises a brilliant question, which is what I think Simon and Chris were too polite to say: Why do New Age teachers think that their own version of “hearing God” is different to that which fills mental wards?

    My experience as a psychotherapist confirms to me that the psychosis is identical.

    The reason why so many New Age and spiritual teachers get away with it (without being institutionalized) is because they are highly functioning. They don’t come across as “mad.”

    Wendy’s real problem is that she’s surrounded herself with people who have normalized her experience. Because psychosis has become the norm in some spiritual circles, she hasn’t realized that these are symptoms of a much deeper problem. She genuinely thinks her experiences are both real and normal (they are neither). This isn’t really Wendy’s fault, I would lay the blame squarely at her sources of spiritual inspiration – e.g. her Reiki teacher (I don’t know what else she has studied).

    I want to emphasize that Wendy is not alone in this. We are talking about some form of group-delusion that has “infected” (in the memetic sense) the New Age movement. When I first met Simon teaching theta he was no different. In fact he was one of the worst offenders. Thankfully he’s learned a few valuable life lessons since then. I don’t mean to take any credit, but I’m very glad you let me talk you into reading McFetridge’s work.

    your’s
    el abogado

    [Reply]

  10. Thanks for your amusing explanations. Please note I never said I believed in God- I decided when I was 9 years old that the bible was a fairy story and God fitted in with the Easter bunny and Santa. Nor did I say that I beleived in divine intervention. I left you to draw your own conclusions.
    Your conclusions are mainly that I am delusional because you have closed your minds to what is possible. YOu will find it difficult to beleive that I was as closed minded and hard headed as many of you at one time, however, the spiritual experiences that I have had gave me no option but to open my mind. “Logic takes you from A to B, imagination takes you everywhere”. Einstein.
    I took a Reiki workshop after several years of practicing Aikido. This martial art developed my Ki and I could feel the tingling and energy as I trained. I saw Reiki and thought it must be something similar and had to do it. The teacher smudged the room ad us- I thought it ridiculous. The pronounced Kyoto incorrectly and I was full of disdain. I fet cheated- this was just Ki, nothing special. However, i had the weekend free so I decided to open my mind and then next day i started to experience more sensations in my hands but only when it was relevant to the other persons physical problems.
    I could tell you about lots of other experiences- like the UFO hovering above the trees on a particular corner of the motorway. I couldn’t beleive what I saw myself. I was going over all the possibilities as I was driving along. It was only the next week when I saw that the tops of the fir trees had been burnt level that I beleived it myself.
    More delusions? Well, I suppose even well educated intelligent formerly synical agnostics can be psychotic but I don’t think so. I have just opened my mind.

    [Reply]

    Chris Reply:

    Wendy

    I mentioned God and included the easter bunny et el but you failed to understand the significance of this statement. It is a statement where attributing “unbelievable events” to “something” is what I refute. I require proof of anything. Just as religious people typically use the term “faith” to answer unanswerable questions so to you are requesting people to believe the unbelievable. No you have not stated that you believe in a diving being or divine intervention but at the same time you have provided unbelievable stories which can actually be easily explained as el Abogado del Diablo has kindly done.

    Your example of a UFO hoevering over the trees and burning the tree tops must have been something truly extraordinary. Extraordinary enough for you to go back and take some photographs of the burnt trees (proof) as well as some samples to be studied in a laboratory so as to determine what fuel source burnt the trees….no?

    I believe in opening my mind to any form of proof on this planet since it is proof that provides us with knowledge and thus power.

    I have met many new agers who use the term “open your mind” much in the same fashion as religious people use the term “you must have faith”. What both groups are saying really is this: I have no proof but you should feel silly if you don’t understand and I’m going to get upset if you don’t agree with me.

    There is such a thing as having a mind so open your brains fall out.

    [Reply]

  11. Once more this blog has had me in fits of laughter. The image of me clambering up a pine tree to collect samples!
    I hope that Chris has his proofs sometime as I have had mine. I think it is now clear why more people, especially those with differing views don’t contribute to this blog.
    If people have the courage to travel, they don’t fall off the edge.
    There is a seen world and an unseen. When you acknowledge the unseen, this is the beginnings of awareness then you can start to explore. When you explore the world is a much bigger place and you understand more laws of the Universe and that there is a consciousness everwhere.
    I now leave you to your own world.

    Love and Light
    Wendy

    [Reply]

  12. George Duisman

    Simon:
    Thanks for the question. As I see it this is all about confusion. We are all confused on different subjects in different ways. And manifesting and LOA is no exception. Maybe in writing this I might expose some of my own confusion and even get it straightened out! LOL I hope this is helpful to someone here.
    What is divine intervention? If a tribesman that has never made any contact with what we call civilization is caught in a flood and is about to drown and he knows it and gets rescued by a helicopter, he’ll likely consider it some sort of divine intervention. But, it’s not, he’s just confused.
    I think that “the law of attraction” is a nice idea that gets people thinking in new and wonderful ways, but to look at it as a law, like gravity is going too far. Also, is attraction the best explanation for it? I doubt it. As I see it now, it’s more a situation of manifestation rather than attraction. There is something other than attraction going on.
    We are all potentially VERY powerful and we generally don’t have a clue about our power because our coherence is quite low. So how do we separate divine intervention from our own power? Right now I don’t know. I don’t even know how to define it. We need a lot more knowledge to address that question.
    The key to manifesting as I see it, is coherence (I think there might be a better term, but I don’t know what it is right now). I’ve done lots of minor manifesting and some major manifesting. I mean hundreds of times (more than trillions to one against chance overall), so I think that gives me some knowledge in that area. I say, coherence is key, without it, manifesting / attraction won’t work well at all. Small things are easier to manifest as there will likely be less blocks and thus less coherence / past trauma clearing work needed.
    Is LOA or manifesting attracting? Here are two recent examples from my work. One is how I found RPT.

    FINDING RPT
    It’s a simple and seemingly coincidental one. But, I’ve experienced many of these and I know that most of them have to be from the manifesting that was done. I asked my group (a group seems more powerful than a single person) to do the manifesting process to help me to make my trauma releasing process more effective and make it so that I can get my own traumas released also. Two or three days later a group member sends a short article about Theta Healing. I take a look and recognize it as something that I’d already discarded as not being useful.
    Then I remembered making a bookmark on Theta healing a year ago or so and checked it out. Checking an old link is not my normal pattern. What I had bookmarked was http://www.thetamagic.com/. I clicked on the link and it took me to; http://www.referencepointtherapy.com/ Just a little synchronicity. Almost all of the later improvements to my processes came in a similar way and almost always within a few days. So, it’s quite unlikely to just be happenstance.

    MANIFESTING $4000 IN A FEW DAYS
    My second example is on the other end of the manifesting spectrum. A woman that I’m working with to see how far we can go in getting to coherence was moving to a new apartment and needed a new truck and some extra money for other expenses. She needed an extra $3000 to buy the truck. Two or three days after doing the manifesting process she went to count her money which she kept in an envelope inside a plastic bag. She then found that there was an extra envelope (a bank envelope) with $4000 worth of the Costa Rican money (the country where she lives). She has no idea as to how that money and envelope got there. She uses US dollars and does not know how to count the Costa Rican money. She had to have help in counting it. There is no reasonable way anyone could have put the money there and she did not put it there outside of sleep walking!
    Is the last example attraction? Definitely does not look that way to me. I don’t see how any attraction process can explain this one. Can you explain this via attraction? Would many people call this divine intervention? Very likely! Looks to me like something else is going on, yet the manifesting process used was the same as was used to get me to notice RPT.

    Regarding what it takes to manifest, here are some simple steps.

    1. Get really clear about what you want and what it’s for. You say that you want to win the lottery jackpot so you can quit your job. That’s probably not good enough. One should also start small as there will be less blocks in the way.
    2. Do your process (I have one that works well for me and others), affirmations and vision boards etc. can be effective.
    3. Create coherence about what you want to manifest. The first two steps can stir up some of the blocks. Eliminate the blocks / past trauma. I suspect that full coherence along with step one, may actually be all that is needed in order to manifest.
    Gary Craig (Emotional Freedom Techniques) talks about using affirmations to stir up the blocks (which he calls tailenders) to the manifestation desired and then uses EFT to eliminate the blocks. Eventually and hopefully, all the blocks in the way of the manifestation will be removed. This really does work if one is conscious enough to find all the blocks. From what I’ve seen, RPT should work better and faster than EFT or even my process in eliminating the blocks. Here is an actual example of Gary Craig’s “tailender elimination process” written up.

    http://www.thestillpoint.co.uk/personal/adventure_in_the_palace.htm

    My big question is how rapid and far can one go in obtaining coherence and how will that effect ones ability to manifest? I’m working with some people on this and our progress is quite encouraging. Again, I’m hoping that RPT will help speed up the process for us. Actually, just the concept that survival / security issues are key, seems to be helping.

    P.S. Wendy: I side more with your point of view, but I’ve been on the other side and am still bothered by the mass of fuzzy and irresponsible thinking that is so prevalent in this present day world. We will be extremely empowered when we can sort out the truth and I expect that we will be able to do that when we obtain powerful coherence, even in just one person.

    [Reply]

    Simon Rose Reply:

    Hi Geroge
    Thanks so much for the well thought out response.

    > Thanks for the question. As I see it this is all about confusion. We are all confused on different subjects in different ways.

    It’s a funny way of looking at things, but I think it’s essentially true. This sounds a lot like the Hindu/Yogic concept of “maya” (layers of illusion).

    > If a tribesman … helicopter … he’s just confused.

    But is he? I mean doesn’t it depend on how you define divine intervention. I don’t think anyone (even the Pope) seriously defines divine intervention as the hand of god literally coming down from the skies and lifting you up. Rather I think most people define divine intervention as a force outside of your or bigger than you intervening on your behalf. Now if you were praying to god for salvation from the flood and then god “sent” (inspired a human to send) a helicopter, well that WOULD be divine intervention?

    Of course I don’t believe in that concept of god or divine intervention; I’m just defining what it is that I’m arguing against. It seems to me like you picked too easy a target. Arguing against the scientifically impossible “miraculous” is just too easy. Arguing against the scientifically possible inspired by the invisible and untestable – now that’s a question worthy of philosophers like us.

    So in fact the tribesman may or may not be confused, but it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he’s seen a helicopter before. It only has to do with his interpretation of CAUSALITY. Did he attract the helicopter? Or did he cause his Sun God or Wind God or whatever the Masai pray to to send him the helicopter?

    > I think that “the law of attraction” is a nice idea that gets people thinking in new and wonderful ways, but to look at it as a law, like gravity is going too far.

    Actually I disagree.

    Einsteinian purists would say that gravity is not a law, more of a tendency or a “symptom” of the curvature of the universe. I would say that LOA is in the same category as gravity – perhaps it’s not a “law” in the sense of thermodynamics but it’s a symptom of the universe we live in. It’s a natural law.

    To argue it isn’t a natural law you need to show that it doesn’t work or can’t be relied on. I have spent years thinking about this and decided in the end that it’s merely misunderstood. Rather like gravity, it’s a complicated function of variables we don’t fully understand. Perhaps “quantum uncertainty” prevents us ever really predicting its application. It may be useless for prediction but it seems to be quite useful with hindsight for understand why we attracted events into our lives.

    > Also, is attraction the best explanation for it? I doubt it. As I see it now, it’s more a situation of manifestation rather than attraction. There is something other than attraction going on.

    I must be misunderstanding you – what’s the distinction between manifestation and LOA here? They are generally regarded as 2 sides of the 1 coin.

    > We are all potentially VERY powerful and we generally don’t have a clue about our power because our coherence is quite low. So how do we separate divine intervention from our own power?

    Well isn’t that what this debate is about? “Team God” argue for divine intervention (it keeps the sheeple small and powerless); whilst “Team RPT” argue against divine intervention (it enables us to believe in our own personal power).

    It’s not about separating them, it’s more about deciding who to give credit to.

    > Right now I don’t know. I don’t even know how to define it. We need a lot more knowledge to address that question.

    No we don’t. It’s a matter of personal choice.
    (a) Giant omnipotent invisible and probably angry being who might judge and condemn you (depending on your faith) send this experience into my life to reward and or punish me; or
    (b) I’m divine, I attracted it myself and I’ll take responsible for it.

    > The key to manifesting as I see it, is coherence

    Absolutely. The reason RPT is quite effective for manifesting is that we get the head, heart and body minds into coherence. Most people (99%) say that they want “x” with their head, feel that they want “y” with their heart but really feel safe with “z” in their body. That’s why it’s all about coherence.

    > Is LOA or manifesting attracting? Here are two recent examples from my work. One is how I found RPT.

    It’s either attracting or creating, is there really a difference?

    FINDING RPT
    It’s a simple and seemingly coincidental one. But, I’ve experienced many of these and I know that most of them have to be from the manifesting that was done. I asked my group (a group seems more powerful than a single person) to do the manifesting process to help me to make my trauma releasing process more effective and make it so that I can get my own traumas released also. Two or three days later a group member sends a short article about Theta Healing. I take a look and recognize it as something that I’d already discarded as not being useful.
    Then I remembered making a bookmark on Theta healing a year ago or so and checked it out. Checking an old link is not my normal pattern. What I had bookmarked was http://www.thetamagic.com/. I clicked on the link and it took me to; http://www.referencepointtherapy.com/ Just a little synchronicity. Almost all of the later improvements to my processes came in a similar way and almost always within a few days. So, it’s quite unlikely to just be happenstance.

    > MANIFESTING $4000 IN A FEW DAYS

    That was a wonderful example but dangerous. Beware of “magical thinking.” The money wasn’t put there by God (because everyone knows God only uses USD!). One day the explanation will become clear, until then, a great example of manifesting or creating or attracting.

    Quick anecdote – years ago with a friend I manifested something like $4,000. Then I went straight to an ATM and requested a bank balance, and it was $4,000 more than I had in the account the previous time I checked. I was totally blown away.

    Later I figured out that it was from some shares that I had sold a week or 2 before and the money had just arrived in my account. So there was a non-divine explanation. But nevertheless can we say the manifestation worked? I mean I asked for almost exactly that amount of cash and then it appeared in my account.

    I think your friend’s example falls into this category, albeit that she hasn’t answered the mystery yet.

    > Regarding what it takes to manifest, here are some simple steps.

    OK but rather complex – head/heart/gut is very easy and effective. You still need to celar blocks first though, mainly fear of success.

    > My big question is how rapid and far can one go in obtaining coherence and how will that effect ones ability to manifest?

    The ultimate goal is union of all minds or centres of consciousness. According to Grant McFetridge this is synonymous with enlightenment. I suppose that at full union it would be instant physical manifestation of thought->thing.

    > I’m hoping that RPT will help speed up the process for us.

    I have no doubt of it.

    > P.S. Wendy: I side more with your point of view, but I’ve been on the other side and am still bothered by the mass of fuzzy and irresponsible thinking

    For what it’s worth I am against magical thinking, it rots the brain. There are always simpler explanations. Unfortunately with most spiritual phenomena the simple explanation is psychosis. (Many supposedly great spiritual teachers are in fact schizophrenic, hence they keep “hearing God talk to them”). But fairies and angels talking to me is much more popular than admitting to mild psychosis. But for you as an independent observer – be brave enough to ask that question: “magic or psychosis?” You be the judge.

    Just my thoughts, no real disrespect meant to the magical thinking brigade. Please understand I would be truly delighted to be disproved.

    Blessings
    Simon

    [Reply]

  13. George Duisman

    Hi Simon:
    I think that the main misunderstanding we have comes from my literal interpretation of the word attraction. You seem to define it much more broadly. I say there is no big cosmic magnet in our souls that we turn on and off. What is called attraction or manifesting is quite different from literal “attraction” in my opinion. Here are two definitions that seem to fit.

    Attract: To draw to itself by invisible influence:
    d. Said of drawing to oneself parasites, disease, damp, dust, the shafts of wit, criticism, etc., by exposing a surface which intercepts them, or by presenting conditions favourable to their settlement.

    A friend many months ago asked me in a very simplistic way, as if there was only two choices – believer or non-believer; “Do you believe in the law of attraction?” I bristled and said something to the effect of not the way it has been popularized. A better answer might be “No, I don’t believe in it at all. My understanding is that we are all incredible beings and what people are calling the law of attraction is a twisted explanation of part of our incredible abilities.” I hope that clears things up a bit. Writing is quite a limited way of communication.

    You said that my 3 step process is “rather complex”. LOL What is new seems complex until we learn it. It seems quite simple to me. The head, heart, gut process seems complex to me. All that I know about head, heart, gut comes from your video with Renee. Besides (yes I know I’m comparing apples with oranges here), Your level one course takes two or three days to teach. And I can teach the basics of my manifesting process to someone in 10 or 15 minutes and the process itself takes only about one minute once we are clear about what is wanted. I don’t use affirmations nor vision boards, I just mentioned those so people would hopefully understand the concept better.
    Talking about manifesting, have you ever attempted to manifest insights? I find that it usually happens faster than manifesting things and circumstances. Why don’t we manifest the insights to resolve the problem of “magical thinking”? I can see three main categories of results we might get. One is that we both have similar traumas in our souls regarding this sort of thing. If so, we can then heal those traumas and most likely then be quite empowered when exposed to people doing magical thinking and may actually enjoy being around them because we can see ways of helping.
    The second main possibility is that you, me or someone may get an insight as to how to start a trend that will eventually erase magical thinking. That insight might be as simple as a way to make RPT spread like wildfire. And the last main possibility is both of us have missed something important that the magical thinking crowd understands and so we get the insights as to how to change that in ourselves so we start doing more magical thinking. Unlikely , but I like to give the other side the benefit of some doubt. LOL.

    Regarding the $4000 manifested, I’m pretty confident of my ability to estimate where my friend is at in her thinking and remembering and also in my ability to effectively question her. As I understand it, she had checked her money bag the previous week for a rough count. So her not remembering a different envelope with $4000 is near impossible. So much so, that I actually think the best explanation is something else, maybe the money got teleported there somehow. For me this is rather like you observing one of your better physical healings. If a doctor were to observe lets say a missing finger growing back after an RPT session, he’d figure he was hallucinating or that it was a magic trick. You on the other hand having seen lots of healing, you would likely say something like; “Oh, that’s a good one!” That’s the way the $4000 is for me. I was surprised and pleased at how rapidly she got to a very high coherence on it and so I’m not too surprised by something quite unusual. This is not the most far out manifestation that I’ve been a part of.

    >”(b) I’m divine, I attracted it myself and I’ll take responsib[ility] for it.”
    Very well said. I totally agree. My guess is that there are a lot of reasons for “Magical thinking” and yes, I think it’s quite crippling. Some of these are fear, lazy thinking, wanting to fit in, etc. I have an example of fear that was VERY surprising to me. Many years ago I wrote a computer program that gives nearly instant psychic feedback. I used it a lot. One day just as I started using it I was thoroughly distracted for about three minutes. When I looked at the screen to see what I had done, I went into a big fear reaction. What I had done in those three minutes was about ½ a million to one against chance. This was what I wanted and yet went into a fear reaction? I contemplated this reaction for quite a while. The feeling that came to me was that if I did something really “Out there” it could be very dangerous for me, like getting burnt at the stake. That’s a big surprise lack of coherence!
    Simon, talking about my computer program brings up a question for me. Do you think it’s feasible with RPT to get me to total coherence in using that program i.e. a very powerful PSI state of mind? Have you worked with anyone to get them to coherence re remote viewing, PSI etc.?

    [Reply]

  14. Hi again George

    > I think that the main misunderstanding we have comes from my literal interpretation of the word attraction.

    Yes, I find that most disagreements are just matters of definition.

    > You said that my 3 step process is “rather complex”. LOL What is new seems complex until we learn it.

    Sure, agreed.

    > All that I know about head, heart, gut comes from your video with Renee.

    Out of date but my fault – I have so much video content and so little time to post it. Also the “real” stuff as in full demos gets posted on our graduate site not the public forum. That’s a tough compromise I made – I ‘d love to just give it away but since I’ve licenced 20+ teachers teach RPT courses I can’t just put the course online!

    > Besides (yes I know I’m comparing apples with oranges here), Your level one course takes two or three days to teach.
    >And I can teach the basics of my manifesting process to someone in 10 or 15 minutes

    I know you know this but for the same of any one else reading: it’s not so much apples and oranges as apples and SUVs (or other such silly comparison). The course you allude to is about taking members of the public with no prior knowledge of healing, spirituality or psychology and teaching them basic therapist skills. Not a manifesting course though we cover manifesting in the last half hour.

    > Talking about manifesting, have you ever attempted to manifest insights?

    I don’t think I worded it that way but I guess so. I also use a much simpler RPT technique which I can teach in one paragraph. It’s called pretending. You can access universal knowledge by saying “I pretend that I know X.” That allows you to somehow (I have no idea how without resorting to magical thinking) remember that you know or have the insight. Play with it, it’s really cool. I tell the students that if they get stuck they say “I pretend that I’m a master therapist” or somesuch. Not “pretend to be Simon” or “pretend to know RPT” because both are too small and limited. They should pretend to be “masters” and remember what they need to know. Works every time (at least in conjunction with the coherence/beingness technique).

    > Simon, talking about my computer program brings up a question for me. Do you think it’s feasible with RPT to get me to total coherence in using that program i.e. a very powerful PSI state of mind?
    > Have you worked with anyone to get them to coherence re remote viewing, PSI etc.?

    I should make a distinction – getting someone to coherence is easy (oftentimes… obviously some people are hard work). The real test – as per Grant McFetridge’s work on enlightenment – is keeping them in a state of coherence (Grant calls them Peak States). My point is that I’m not impressed or interested in computer programs or PSI methods to reach coherence. Nor (and this is important) do I waste my time teaching methods to reach coherence.

    All I’m interested, along with all other teachers and schools of thoughts touched moved and inspired by Grant, is whether we can help people to permanently stay in these states. Accessing it for 10 minutes or even an hour has very little value to me.

    Grant thinks that the answer lies in using TFT (tapping techniques) and pre-natal regression. I think that’s too slow and prefer the triune brain method we developed. Other people use other methods. All of us have the same goal – permanently accessing our full consciousness.

    So to answer your question, no I do not think that a computer program can make this sort of permanent change, nor do I think that remote viewing, PSI can achieve it. This is because we are talking about a question of pure consciousness and you need consciousness to guide someone to consciousness.

    Of course, I could be totally wrong. These are just my own limiting beliefs which I own.

    Best wishes
    Simon

    [Reply]

  15. George Duisman

    Simon:
    Thanks so much for your response.

    > It’s called pretending. You can access universal knowledge by saying “I pretend that I know X.” That allows you to somehow (I have no idea how without resorting to magical thinking) remember that you know or have the insight. Play with it, it’s really cool.

    If you and your students can do this easily, you have the key to becoming totally unlimited and obtain total coherence!! I came across something similar years ago and did not get it to work much at all. Just tried again with your words and did not get any clear success. Yet, I’m pretty sure that it will eventually be helpful to me. I can see that the principle is quite similar to what I’m using successfully right now. A second point of view on the same thing is usually quite wonderful. Thanks!

    Re Coherence: >”Accessing it for 10 minutes or even an hour has very little value to me.”

    You have contradicted yourself here. Short term coherence is almost certain to be the explanation for why the “I pretend to know X” process works. No need to do any magical thinking here. I call it open minded science, which is what you are doing. Anna Wise used a machine called a “Mind Mirror” to monitor human brainwaves. It’s basically a brainwave spectrum analyzer. She found that there was a pattern that occurred from time to time in most everyone. She called it the “Awakened Mind” state. She found that when people showed that pattern in their brainwaves they would get wonderful insights which proved to be the solution that they wanted. This is the same brainwave pattern that she found nearly constant on some advanced Yogis and other powerful people.
    Ed Stillman did some extensive brainwave measuring work with a couple of really good dowsers. When they were in the dowsing state of mind, their brainwaves were quite different from their “normal” brainwaves and similar to what Anna Wise found in the “Awakened Mind” state.
    I’ve done the same sort of thing with my PSI feedback program multiple times. The program shows an unusually high peak on the graph (about 10,000 to one) and I then try out what I was thinking when the spike / peak occurred and it turned out to be the solution that I was seeking.

    > “I’m not impressed or interested in computer programs or PSI methods to reach coherence.”

    I was not attempting to interest you in my program nor any PSI methods. I am interested in getting help to get into coherence regarding that program. The program has two main uses, one is rather like the SUDS level that I’ve seen you use on some of your RPT videos, except it measures PSI and probably a form of extreme coherence. The second use is to create all kinds of wonderful things. For Instance, I have calculated based on the extreme “coherence” states that I’ve measured in myself, that as little as 30 seconds of that would enable me to do some things you would not believe. I have the same goal as you – “permanently accessing our full consciousness.” My coherence while using the program as I see it can smooth the way and be a big step toward accessing permanently our full consciousness.

    That brings me to another question(s). If you were to say (and do);
    “I pretend to know how to start the ending of the magical thinking problem in the world.” How long would that take you to get the insights?
    Or
    “I pretend to know how to manifest and facilitate powerful assistance to help spread RPT like wildfire.” How long would that take you to get the insights?
    Or
    > “That’s a tough compromise I made – I ‘d love to just give it away but since I’ve licenced 20+ teachers teach RPT courses I can’t just put the course online!”

    “I pretend to know how to redo the agreement with my licensed RPT teachers so that I can put the course online and make it so that everyone wins.” How long would that take you to get the insights?
    Or
    “I pretend to know how to find the optimum uses for RPT.” How long would that take you to get the insights?
    Or
    “I pretend to know how to get people to permanently access full consciousness.” How long would that take you to get the insights?

    [Reply]

  16. George Duisman

    Simon:
    Full Consciousness Team – Let’s create it!

    I woke up with the obvious insight. You mentioned in your first response to me; “Team RPT” and then in your last response, you said;
    >”The real test – as per Grant McFetridge’s work on enlightenment – is keeping them in a state of coherence (Grant calls them Peak States). …
    >All I’m interested [in], along with all other teachers and schools of thoughts touched, moved and inspired by Grant, is whether we can help people to permanently stay in these states.”

    We should start a “Full Consciousness Team”. RPT will likely be our main “power tool”. The goal would be to make the path to full consciousness for everyone. At first of course it would be for team members. With many people and RPT etc. it seems to me that it would be fairly easy. I think we should make it broader than just RPT as there are many non-RPT trained people that can contribute. I know that I can contribute a lot. Your mention of Grant McFetridge’s work on enlightenment, is my first exposure to him and his work. But, I’ve been aiming for this “enlightenment” for many years.

    [Reply]

  17. problem is law of attraction is misunderstood by people who are not fully awake, suffer from addictions within the material world and are not operating from a place of neutrality and on lower vibrational beliefs and desires and a desire to manipulate life through these. What is also missed is that law of attraction also works on a collective level as well. People arent even asking why they want what they want and whats beneath it, media, advertising, societal constructs. Its all an energy of not being complete and never having enough and its evident in people who do manifest all the money in the world and they still feel empty because its never enough. They are really manifesting the idea “I never have enough”. law of attraction is meant as a mirror of a dream world showing what is being created and where we have forgotten truth and unconditional love. Yes, mystics can spontaneously manifest but its always from a place of neutrality unfocused on outcomes and they are awake first and don’t need to have the middle step of manifesting money or to deplete their energy or the planet or other resources to bring a manifestation about.

    Loved your theta healing videos on why downloading doesn’t work. Its true, have been having some of the same ideas with EFT etc. we forget we are already perfect and whole and complete and so much striving on the outside world, we forget who we really are…

    [Reply]

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